[menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity

Fri Nov 1 23:19:41 UTC 2013

*Hi Fahd,*

As a Persian speaking this thread was interesting as Network in Persian is
written like شبکه and there is a tiny difference between the Persian
version and the Arabic one (on the last char,  ة).

I was thinking as it is obvious from the conversation that almost, some
folks here believe IDNs will not gain a large market share (at least
considering to the local TLDs) ICANN could share the TLDs like this one
with both languages.

Best Regards,
---
*Jalal Rohani
*
*JraNil <http://jranil.net> @ <https://twitter.com/jranil>
.me<http://about.me/jranil>
*

On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 12:07 AM, Fahd Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at icann.org>wrote:

> Very valid points Steve, you seem to have lived in the region to make such
> conclusions ;-)
>
>
>
> In terms of consistency in attending relevant events on regular basis,
> please add the following two points:
>
>
>
> ·         Lack of interest in traveling within the region, and giving
> more preference to traveling to anywhere outside the region (even if it is
> Zee-Land).
>
> ·         Traveling as means for leisure and free vacationing (more
> precisely, vacationing at the cost of ones employer).
>
>
>
> Another valid point is that those who attend events on regular basis are
> the same old faces until they are retired, or until new blood shows
> interest in such events.
>
>
>
> Fahd
>
>
>
> *From:* Stephen Wilcox [mailto:steve.wilcox at ixreach.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 30, 2013 5:09 PM
> *To:* Ahmed Abu-Abed
> *Cc:* Fahd Batayneh; menog at menog. net
>
> *Subject:* Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity
>
>
>
> Hi Ahmed,
>
>  thats a very good point about not being a single country - (English is
> dominated by America, Russian is dominated by Russians, etc), and this was
> one reason I suggested that it would help if Arab states could pool
> resources instead of each trying to lead the way which results in 5 leaders
> and a fragmented approach.
>
>
>
> Even within a pooled approach there are difficulties since the Arabic
> region is itself split into sub-regions (I'd argue North Africa, the
> Levant/East Mediterranean and the Gulf are different sub-regions).
>
>
>
> RIPE solved some of this within Europe, with its member meetings it
> produced multi-lateral working groups that produced policies with interests
> being represented from a cross section of industries and countries to form
> consensus which later produced proposals which became ratified. One
> downside is that this was largely technical and was developed predominantly
> in the past at a time when the Internet was technical led, whereas today
> the market has shifted and become more commoditised and commercial.
>
>
>
> MENOG (and perhaps Arab IGF) could take similar roles if working groups
> were created to address different issues both technical and commercial that
> then had the support of their respective employers and governments.
> However, I see a couple of problems arising:
>
>
>
> - MENOG attendance is highly variable, there is little consistency of
> attendance from locals - there is reluctance to travel if the meeting is
> not in your home country
>
> - IGF is highly politicised, attendees represent the interests of their
> governments and bring agendas - too many people in a room trying to solve
> big issues instead of breaking down the issues and creating task groups
>
> - Many states are unwilling to relinquish control to a group which might
> not produce the outcome it favours - hence consensus and direction are hard
> to find
>
> - Many states think they can do better and prefer to create their own
> initiative than to join in with an existing initiative
>
>
>
> This mailing list and MENOG can help to develop these groups and see
> regular attendance from key people from major organizations and each
> country, I'd encourage those with a particular specialist area to try to do
> that and take a lead if possible.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> On 30 October 2013 09:17, Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Fahd,
>
>
>
> IMHO resolving variants and keyboard compatibility needs more on the
> practice of building consensus than anything else. And building consensus
> is not easy in this part of the world as the language is actively used by
> many cultures. I think Arabic is at a unique & difficult position when it
> comes to IDNs as other non-Latin languages are dominated by single country
> which can set the rules easily.
>
>
>
> That said, we still need to market the Arab IDN more actively so people
> are aware of the option.
>
>
>
> -Ahmed
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Fahd Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at icann.org>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:32 AM
>
> *To:* Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien.com>
>
> *Cc:* mailto:menog at menog.net <menog at menog.net>
>
> *Subject:* RE: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity
>
>
>
> Ahmed, I agree with you that IDN’s is no rocket science, but I strongly
> disagree that it has little to do with R&D and innovation. In the case of
> the Arab script, if it had little to do with R&D and innovation, we would
> have resolved local issues such as variants and keyboard compatibility A
> LONG time ago. R&D and innovation is one approach to the solution, and
> collaboration amongst different linguistic communities is another.
>
>
>
> Fahd
>
>
>
> *From:* Ahmed Abu-Abed [mailto:ahmed at tamkien.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:43 AM
> *To:* Fahd Batayneh; Stephen Wilcox
> *Cc:* menog at menog. net
> *Subject:* Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity
>
>
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> Implementing IDNs is not rocket science, and has little to do with R&D and
> innovation. Its for the benefit of the average Arab user on the street who
> has an Arabic interface everywhere on his PC and mobile and an Arabic IDN
> would helpful too while browsing the web.
>
>
>
> -Ahmed
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Fahd Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at icann.org>
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2013 7:17 PM
>
> *To:* Stephen Wilcox <steve.wilcox at ixreach.com>
>
> *Cc:* mailto:menog at menog.net <menog at menog.net>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity
>
>
>
> Steve, you have mentioned very important and valid points about the
> region. While Amman, Jordan is considered the Silicon Valley of the Middle
> East, I always say that it is an over-stated statement simply because while
> a Silicon Valley is a place for innovation and creativity, Amman is an IT
> hub where we have excellent IT professionals who learn new technologies,
> but do not innovate any. The weak link in this part of the world is lack of
> R&D centers, and that is why our educational systems are not on-par with
> that of the Western world or even the fat east.
>
>
>
> Fahd
>
>
>
> *From:* menog-bounces at lists.menog.org [
> mailto:menog-bounces at lists.menog.org <menog-bounces at lists.menog.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Stephen Wilcox
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2013 4:40 PM
> *To:* Ahmed Abu-Abed
> *Cc:* menog at menog. net; Timothy Roy
> *Subject:* Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity
>
>
>
> Hi Ahmed,
>
> I agree it won't go away and is less than before - but on your second
> point, remembering a site URL, I would suggest, is not easier than
> searching for the company or service name in a browser search bar or
> clicking on the iTunes app.
>
>
>
> Russia and Korea aren't really comparable - they are two highly developed
> independent markets in terms of technology, resources and experience in the
> Internet field, with very advanced software produced domestically. In
> Russia, sites such as Yandex (Яндекс.рф) and mail.ru dominate the user
> base and a typical user with their Russian keyboard, Russian operating
> system, Russian browser using their domestically produced search engine
> (Яндекс.рф) which produces a list of locally hosted sites and services
> developed specifically for the Russian market (as opposed to google.com,
> facebook.com, microsoft.com which are English made to fit into Arabic
> with few developers in region).
>
>
>
> I don't think these will be comparable until such time as there is an
> Arabic technological centre - producing software engineers, advanced
> software and hardware integration. And the opposite is currently true; 90%+
> of Arabic websites are hosted outside the region, mostly in the US;
> compared to nearly all (I can't find a percent) Russian websites are hosted
> within Russia fully on Russian infrastructure.
>
>
>
> Another sample data point - Arabic is the 5th most spoken language (280m
> native speakers), Russian is the 8th (160m native speakers) yet Russian is
> the 2nd most common language on the web.
>
>
>
>
>
> I think is part of a wider interesting topic, perhaps one for future
> debates at MENOG meetings. This is that in spite of the population and
> wealth of the Arabic region, the region has typically not invested in local
> innovation or initiatives or where it has it has tended to throw money at
> pet projects but the benefits of these are generally felt most by the
> foreign partners, works or few rich financiers who back the projects. More
> Arabic IDNs, more local centres of skill, more cooperation between nations
> who currently compete to produce 5 average results instead of 1 global
> leader, more initiatives for local web hosting and software production that
> can compete on skill and price with Hyderabad, Seoul, Silicon Valley etc
> would go a long way.
>
>
>
> Kind regards
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> On 29 October 2013 05:12, Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien.com> wrote:
>
> Typing in URLs is less than before, but it won’t go away. And its much
> easier to remember a sites name in one’s native language and script.
>
>
>
> That’s why we are looking for ways to increase Arabic IDN adoption, while
> Russian and Korean IDN have been very successful commercially and in
> consumer uptake (see the reports Baher Esmat sent yesterday).
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> -Ahmed
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Stephen Wilcox <steve.wilcox at ixreach.com>
>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 7:25 PM
>
> *To:* Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien.com>
>
> *Cc:* Timothy Roy <Timothy at tra.gov.om> ; mailto:menog at menog.net<menog at menog.net>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity
>
>
>
> I mean there is less interest and value since navigation on the Internet
> has moved away from typing URLs into browsers.. app based devices and
> better search engines along with integration with browsers means most users
> are not remembering and typing URLs and instead using more seamless methods
> to navigate.
>
>
>
> Similarly with the "www" point which is also true with "http://" - many
> years ago this was necessary as a lot of services other than www
> co-existing on the Internet and there was confusion with users, every day
> terminology and the expectation of the technology. Nowadays, if you type
> "apple" into your browser you will find your way immediately to Apple
> without needing the http, www or the .com ... in fact, if you use an iPad
> or iTunes you dont even need to know the URLs, its all built into the apps
> which are preloaded into the device.
>
>
>
> eg enter "خليج" into your browser.. my first hit is "خليج - ويكيبيديا، الموسوعة
> الحرة" and my second is "خليج سيهات" etc ... but the websites are "
> http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/خليج‎" and "http://www.khaleejsaihat.com/‎"
> - both non-IDN, but if I only spoke arabic and didn't even understand the
> latin alphabet it wouldn't matter since the URL isn't important for me.
>
>
>
> I'm not saying there shouldn't be IDNs or that having your company's name
> in arabic isn't important, just that users are not as focussed on the
> domain name any more therefore adoption is slower since priority is going
> elsewhere ie in content and apps.
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> On 28 October 2013 16:12, Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien.com> wrote:
>
> Please elaborate on what is 10 years too late, do you mean IDN is late ?
>
>
>
> -Ahmed
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Stephen Wilcox <steve.wilcox at ixreach.com>
>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 2:53 PM
>
> *To:* Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien.com>
>
> *Cc:* Timothy Roy <Timothy at tra.gov.om> ; mailto:menog at menog.net<menog at menog.net>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity
>
>
>
>
>
> Not wishing to sound skeptical, but isnt this all coming about 10 years
> too late and thats the reason for the lack of adoption?
>
>
>
> The device of choice is a smartphone or tablet, these are app and icon
> based.
>
>
>
> Being old fashioned I still use a computer but mostly find things, even
> common websites by inputting the common name into a search bar (or browser
> bar - Chrome doesnt distinguish) and the result is a clickable list of
> search results, which will be in the local script and language.
>
>
>
> eg the average user never inputs urls anyway, but when they do they likely
> input arabic text directly to the browser for a search term and get a list
> of website titles and then click them. they dont pay attention to the
> underlying URL that much any more
>
>
>
> Compare to this address books on mobile phones. In the 90s I could tell
> you anyone's phone number from memory, now I know maybe my own and my Mums
> and thats about it..
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 28 October 2013 08:38, Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien.com> wrote:
>
> The Arabic version of "net" would come at the beginning of the domain
> name, as we don't have an equivalent of "www". Thus in Oman's case it would
> still end in .oman in Arabic.
>
>
>
> IMO, as techies we may not be the best ones to judge which is better, ie.
> to keep an equivalent of www or drop it. The domain name's marketing staff
> should decide on this, with the aim of gaining more interest to their
> website if promoting an Arabic IDN. Registrar's may provide both options to
> their customers to encourage Arabic IDN adoption.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Ahmed
>
>
>
>
> On 2013-10-28, at 8:05 AM, Timothy Roy <Timothy at tra.gov.om> wrote:
>
> I believe that the Arabic version of net would cause more confusion. I
> think that keeping simpler is better. I know that here in Oman we have been
> pushing and promoting the .oman(Arabic) IDN quite extensively.
>
>
>
> I also believe that for an organization to actually have the Arabic
> content and URL they need to access their market. If they want to reach or
> promote their business to the MENOG regions (or regions of their specific
> country) that have a lesser comprehension of English language then they
> should go for it.  As a registry we are trying to promote it but it is
> mainly up to the Registrars to promote it to obtain more business in this
> field of domain names.
>
>
>
> My quick observations.
>
>
>
> Best Regards
>
>
>
> *Timothy Roy*
>
> *Regulatory and Compliance Unit*
>
> *Domain Name Operations*
>
> *Telecommunications Regulatory Authority.*
>
> *Tel: +968 24574858*
>
> *Mobile: +968 93551117*
>
> *Email: timothy at tra.gov.om*
>
> Office hours: Sunday – Thursday, 7:30am – 3:00pm (Muscat GMT +4)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* menog-bounces at lists.menog.org [mailto:
> menog-bounces at lists.menog.org] *On Behalf Of *Ahmed Abu-Abed
> *Sent:* 28 October 2013 08:55
> *To:* Fahd Batayneh
> *Cc:* menog at menog. net
> *Subject:* Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity
>
>
>
> I agree, the term “www” may seem redundant at first look, but it certainly
> indicates what is coming next is a web site. In other words, it is like a
> “Mr.” or “Dr.” title that give you a rough idea of the person you are
> referring to.
>
> Should we have an Arabic “www” equivalent to grab peoples attention to
> Arabic IDN ? Something like نت  (translated into “net”) so instead of
> عمان.الاردن  the website owner should promote   نت.عمان..الاردن
>
>
>
> This will likely get more attention to Arabic IDNs.
>
>
>
> My 0.02 Dinar thoughts ...
>
>
>
> -Ahmed
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Fahd Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at icann.org>
>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 12:23 AM
>
> *To:* Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien..com>
>
> *Cc:* mailto:menog at menog.net <menog at menog.net>
>
> *Subject:* RE: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity
>
>
>
> I have actually seen Arabic URLs posted in public areas in the UAE, yet it
> is not gaining the marketing advantages it seeks.
>
>
>
> There have been discussions within New gTLD applicants on whether to
> encourage New gTLD registrants (once these new gTLDs are delegated and are
> generally available) to advertise their online presence using “www” in
> front of the URL or not; i.e. www.menog.anything vs. menog.anything. For
> those who might not know, the inventor of the term “www” in front of URLs
> has admitted that such an addition was a mistake in the first place. Yet,
> after thorough discussions, those involved have concluded that in order for
> people to understand what menog.anything is, it is best that “www” is
> added in front of the URL for advertising purposes. I believe this to be
> the case for IDNs we well; i.e. some just don’t understand what
> مثال.اختبار is.
>
>
>
> My 2 cents.
>
>
>
> Fahd
>
>
>
> *From:* menog-bounces at lists.menog.org [mailto:
> menog-bounces at lists.menog.org] *On Behalf Of *Ahmed Abu-Abed
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 27, 2013 9:51 PM
> *To:* Tom Paseka
> *Cc:* menog at menog. net
> *Subject:* Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity
>
>
>
> Hi Tom,
>
>
>
> Country code TLDs have been available since 2010 for 4 Arab countries at
> least. Unfortunately its not on most peoples priority list for
> implementing, and I have not noticed any advertising for an Arabic URL over
> the past couple of years (I live in the MENOG region).
>
>
>
> As for CloudFlares IDNs, it would be good to filter out which are using
> the Arabic alphabet and know how many Arabic IDNs are actually out there.
> That would require a good understanding of Punycode used to translate an
> IDN into Latin characters.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> -Ahmed
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Tom Paseka <tom+menog at cloudflare.com>
>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 27, 2013 7:20 PM
>
> *To:* Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien.com>
>
> *Cc:* mailto:menog at menog.net <menog at menog.net>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity
>
>
>
> Hi Ahmed,
>
>
>
> I've had a look through CloudFlare's customers and we see thousands of
> IDN's, but this is nothing compared to what exists in pre-existing
> romanized domains.
>
>
>
> For a pre-existing company to move to a IDN, or any new domain in general,
> they have to revamp their presence, re-market to everyone to make sure they
> visit the correct address. I assume this isn't an easy task.
>
>
>
> I suspect you'll see new starters coming out from the get-go with an IDN,
> but it'll take a while for the existing content to start adoption.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 1:54 AM, Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien.com> wrote:
>
> ICANN is in the news with the new شبكة  TLD, see
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24637673
>
>
>
> I am yet to see Arabic TLDs widely implemented, although most browsers are
> ready, even on iOS and Android which I tested with an Arabic URL. Any idea
> on why is the delay in implementing Arabic URL by content providers
> (newspapers, etc.) ? People in the region prefer Arabic websites, so I am
> wondering what’s stopping content providers from having Arabic URLs.
>
>
>
> Also, anyone know if major portals, like Google or Yahoo, have implemented
> IDNs in any language for their URL ? Something like ياهو.شبكة  (which
> translates to Yahoo.net , as I cannot find an equivalent to .com as an
> Arabic TLD).
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Ahmed Abu-Abed
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Menog mailing list
> Menog at lists.menog.org
> http://lists.menog.org/mailman/listinfo/menog
>
>
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