[menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity

Sat Nov 2 07:35:14 UTC 2013

Thank you Jalal for your response.

Actually, it is not only the last character of the string “ه” that is different between the Persian version and the Arabic version (in terms of Unicode code point), but also the “ك” is different (Persian vs. Arabic). I know that the Persian “ك” is different than the Arabic “ك” (though they are visually similar).

Fahd

From: Jalal Rohani [mailto:jranil at gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 2:20 AM
To: Fahd Batayneh
Cc: Stephen Wilcox; menog at menog. net
Subject: Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity

Hi Fahd,

As a Persian speaking this thread was interesting as Network in Persian is written like شبکه and there is a tiny difference between the Persian version and the Arabic one (on the last char,  ة).

I was thinking as it is obvious from the conversation that almost, some folks here believe IDNs will not gain a large market share (at least considering to the local TLDs) ICANN could share the TLDs like this one with both languages. 

Best Regards,

---
Jalal Rohani

JraNil <http://jranil.net>  @ <https://twitter.com/jranil>  .me <http://about.me/jranil> 

On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 12:07 AM, Fahd Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at icann.org> wrote:

Very valid points Steve, you seem to have lived in the region to make such conclusions ;-)

In terms of consistency in attending relevant events on regular basis, please add the following two points:

·         Lack of interest in traveling within the region, and giving more preference to traveling to anywhere outside the region (even if it is Zee-Land).

·         Traveling as means for leisure and free vacationing (more precisely, vacationing at the cost of ones employer).

Another valid point is that those who attend events on regular basis are the same old faces until they are retired, or until new blood shows interest in such events.

Fahd

From: Stephen Wilcox [mailto:steve.wilcox at ixreach.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 5:09 PM
To: Ahmed Abu-Abed
Cc: Fahd Batayneh; menog at menog. net

Subject: Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity

Hi Ahmed,

 thats a very good point about not being a single country - (English is dominated by America, Russian is dominated by Russians, etc), and this was one reason I suggested that it would help if Arab states could pool resources instead of each trying to lead the way which results in 5 leaders and a fragmented approach.

Even within a pooled approach there are difficulties since the Arabic region is itself split into sub-regions (I'd argue North Africa, the Levant/East Mediterranean and the Gulf are different sub-regions). 

RIPE solved some of this within Europe, with its member meetings it produced multi-lateral working groups that produced policies with interests being represented from a cross section of industries and countries to form consensus which later produced proposals which became ratified. One downside is that this was largely technical and was developed predominantly in the past at a time when the Internet was technical led, whereas today the market has shifted and become more commoditised and commercial.

MENOG (and perhaps Arab IGF) could take similar roles if working groups were created to address different issues both technical and commercial that then had the support of their respective employers and governments. However, I see a couple of problems arising:

- MENOG attendance is highly variable, there is little consistency of attendance from locals - there is reluctance to travel if the meeting is not in your home country

- IGF is highly politicised, attendees represent the interests of their governments and bring agendas - too many people in a room trying to solve big issues instead of breaking down the issues and creating task groups

- Many states are unwilling to relinquish control to a group which might not produce the outcome it favours - hence consensus and direction are hard to find

- Many states think they can do better and prefer to create their own initiative than to join in with an existing initiative

This mailing list and MENOG can help to develop these groups and see regular attendance from key people from major organizations and each country, I'd encourage those with a particular specialist area to try to do that and take a lead if possible.

Cheers

Steve

On 30 October 2013 09:17, Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien.com> wrote:

Hi Fahd,

IMHO resolving variants and keyboard compatibility needs more on the practice of building consensus than anything else. And building consensus is not easy in this part of the world as the language is actively used by many cultures. I think Arabic is at a unique & difficult position when it comes to IDNs as other non-Latin languages are dominated by single country which can set the rules easily.

That said, we still need to market the Arab IDN more actively so people are aware of the option.

-Ahmed

From: Fahd Batayneh <mailto:fahd.batayneh at icann.org>  

Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:32 AM

To: Ahmed Abu-Abed <mailto:ahmed at tamkien.com>  

Cc: mailto:menog at menog.net 

Subject: RE: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity

Ahmed, I agree with you that IDN’s is no rocket science, but I strongly disagree that it has little to do with R&D and innovation. In the case of the Arab script, if it had little to do with R&D and innovation, we would have resolved local issues such as variants and keyboard compatibility A LONG time ago. R&D and innovation is one approach to the solution, and collaboration amongst different linguistic communities is another.

Fahd

From: Ahmed Abu-Abed [mailto:ahmed at tamkien.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:43 AM
To: Fahd Batayneh; Stephen Wilcox
Cc: menog at menog. net
Subject: Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity

Folks,

Implementing IDNs is not rocket science, and has little to do with R&D and innovation. Its for the benefit of the average Arab user on the street who has an Arabic interface everywhere on his PC and mobile and an Arabic IDN would helpful too while browsing the web. 

-Ahmed

From: Fahd Batayneh <mailto:fahd.batayneh at icann.org>  

Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 7:17 PM

To: Stephen Wilcox <mailto:steve.wilcox at ixreach.com>  

Cc: mailto:menog at menog.net 

Subject: Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity

Steve, you have mentioned very important and valid points about the region. While Amman, Jordan is considered the Silicon Valley of the Middle East, I always say that it is an over-stated statement simply because while a Silicon Valley is a place for innovation and creativity, Amman is an IT hub where we have excellent IT professionals who learn new technologies, but do not innovate any. The weak link in this part of the world is lack of R&D centers, and that is why our educational systems are not on-par with that of the Western world or even the fat east.

Fahd

From: menog-bounces at lists.menog.org [mailto:menog-bounces at lists.menog.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Wilcox
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 4:40 PM
To: Ahmed Abu-Abed
Cc: menog at menog. net; Timothy Roy
Subject: Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity

Hi Ahmed,

I agree it won't go away and is less than before - but on your second point, remembering a site URL, I would suggest, is not easier than searching for the company or service name in a browser search bar or clicking on the iTunes app.

Russia and Korea aren't really comparable - they are two highly developed independent markets in terms of technology, resources and experience in the Internet field, with very advanced software produced domestically. In Russia, sites such as Yandex (Яндекс.рф) and mail.ru dominate the user base and a typical user with their Russian keyboard, Russian operating system, Russian browser using their domestically produced search engine (Яндекс.рф) which produces a list of locally hosted sites and services developed specifically for the Russian market (as opposed to google.com, facebook.com, microsoft.com which are English made to fit into Arabic with few developers in region). 

I don't think these will be comparable until such time as there is an Arabic technological centre - producing software engineers, advanced software and hardware integration. And the opposite is currently true; 90%+ of Arabic websites are hosted outside the region, mostly in the US; compared to nearly all (I can't find a percent) Russian websites are hosted within Russia fully on Russian infrastructure.

Another sample data point - Arabic is the 5th most spoken language (280m native speakers), Russian is the 8th (160m native speakers) yet Russian is the 2nd most common language on the web.

I think is part of a wider interesting topic, perhaps one for future debates at MENOG meetings. This is that in spite of the population and wealth of the Arabic region, the region has typically not invested in local innovation or initiatives or where it has it has tended to throw money at pet projects but the benefits of these are generally felt most by the foreign partners, works or few rich financiers who back the projects. More Arabic IDNs, more local centres of skill, more cooperation between nations who currently compete to produce 5 average results instead of 1 global leader, more initiatives for local web hosting and software production that can compete on skill and price with Hyderabad, Seoul, Silicon Valley etc would go a long way.

Kind regards
Steve

On 29 October 2013 05:12, Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien.com> wrote:

Typing in URLs is less than before, but it won’t go away. And its much easier to remember a sites name in one’s native language and script. 

That’s why we are looking for ways to increase Arabic IDN adoption, while Russian and Korean IDN have been very successful commercially and in consumer uptake (see the reports Baher Esmat sent yesterday).

Regards

-Ahmed

From: Stephen Wilcox <mailto:steve.wilcox at ixreach.com>  

Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:25 PM

To: Ahmed Abu-Abed <mailto:ahmed at tamkien.com>  

Cc: Timothy Roy <mailto:Timothy at tra.gov.om>  ; mailto:menog at menog.net 

Subject: Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity

I mean there is less interest and value since navigation on the Internet has moved away from typing URLs into browsers.. app based devices and better search engines along with integration with browsers means most users are not remembering and typing URLs and instead using more seamless methods to navigate. 

Similarly with the "www" point which is also true with "http://" - many years ago this was necessary as a lot of services other than www co-existing on the Internet and there was confusion with users, every day terminology and the expectation of the technology. Nowadays, if you type "apple" into your browser you will find your way immediately to Apple without needing the http, www or the .com ... in fact, if you use an iPad or iTunes you dont even need to know the URLs, its all built into the apps which are preloaded into the device.

eg enter "خليج" into your browser.. my first hit is "خليج - ويكيبيديا، الموسوعة الحرة" and my second is "خليج سيهات" etc ... but the websites are "http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/خليج‎" and "http://www.khaleejsaihat.com/‎" - both non-IDN, but if I only spoke arabic and didn't even understand the latin alphabet it wouldn't matter since the URL isn't important for me.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be IDNs or that having your company's name in arabic isn't important, just that users are not as focussed on the domain name any more therefore adoption is slower since priority is going elsewhere ie in content and apps.

Steve

On 28 October 2013 16:12, Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien.com> wrote:

Please elaborate on what is 10 years too late, do you mean IDN is late ?

-Ahmed

From: Stephen Wilcox <mailto:steve.wilcox at ixreach.com>  

Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:53 PM

To: Ahmed Abu-Abed <mailto:ahmed at tamkien.com>  

Cc: Timothy Roy <mailto:Timothy at tra.gov.om>  ; mailto:menog at menog.net 

Subject: Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity

Not wishing to sound skeptical, but isnt this all coming about 10 years too late and thats the reason for the lack of adoption?

The device of choice is a smartphone or tablet, these are app and icon based.

Being old fashioned I still use a computer but mostly find things, even common websites by inputting the common name into a search bar (or browser bar - Chrome doesnt distinguish) and the result is a clickable list of search results, which will be in the local script and language. 

eg the average user never inputs urls anyway, but when they do they likely input arabic text directly to the browser for a search term and get a list of website titles and then click them. they dont pay attention to the underlying URL that much any more

Compare to this address books on mobile phones. In the 90s I could tell you anyone's phone number from memory, now I know maybe my own and my Mums and thats about it..

Steve

On 28 October 2013 08:38, Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien.com> wrote:

The Arabic version of "net" would come at the beginning of the domain name, as we don't have an equivalent of "www". Thus in Oman's case it would still end in .oman in Arabic.

IMO, as techies we may not be the best ones to judge which is better, ie. to keep an equivalent of www or drop it. The domain name's marketing staff should decide on this, with the aim of gaining more interest to their website if promoting an Arabic IDN. Registrar's may provide both options to their customers to encourage Arabic IDN adoption.

Regards,

-Ahmed

On 2013-10-28, at 8:05 AM, Timothy Roy <Timothy at tra.gov.om> wrote:

I believe that the Arabic version of net would cause more confusion. I think that keeping simpler is better. I know that here in Oman we have been pushing and promoting the .oman(Arabic) IDN quite extensively. 

I also believe that for an organization to actually have the Arabic content and URL they need to access their market. If they want to reach or promote their business to the MENOG regions (or regions of their specific country) that have a lesser comprehension of English language then they should go for it.  As a registry we are trying to promote it but it is mainly up to the Registrars to promote it to obtain more business in this field of domain names.

My quick observations.

Best Regards

Timothy Roy

Regulatory and Compliance Unit

Domain Name Operations

Telecommunications Regulatory Authority.

Tel: +968 24574858 <tel:%2B968%2024574858> 

Mobile: +968 93551117 <tel:%2B968%2093551117> 

Email:  <mailto:timothy at tra.gov.om> timothy at tra.gov.om

Office hours: Sunday – Thursday, 7:30am – 3:00pm (Muscat GMT +4)

From: menog-bounces at lists.menog.org [mailto:menog-bounces at lists.menog.org] On Behalf Of Ahmed Abu-Abed
Sent: 28 October 2013 08:55
To: Fahd Batayneh
Cc: menog at menog. net
Subject: Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity

I agree, the term “www” may seem redundant at first look, but it certainly indicates what is coming next is a web site. In other words, it is like a “Mr.” or “Dr.” title that give you a rough idea of the person you are referring to. 

Should we have an Arabic “www” equivalent to grab peoples attention to Arabic IDN ? Something like نت  (translated into “net”) so instead of عمان.الاردن  the website owner should promote   نت.عمان..الاردن 

This will likely get more attention to Arabic IDNs.

My 0.02 Dinar thoughts ...

-Ahmed

From: Fahd Batayneh <mailto:fahd.batayneh at icann.org>  

Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 12:23 AM

To: Ahmed Abu-Abed <mailto:ahmed at tamkien..com>  

Cc: mailto:menog at menog.net 

Subject: RE: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity

I have actually seen Arabic URLs posted in public areas in the UAE, yet it is not gaining the marketing advantages it seeks.

There have been discussions within New gTLD applicants on whether to encourage New gTLD registrants (once these new gTLDs are delegated and are generally available) to advertise their online presence using “www” in front of the URL or not; i.e. www.menog.anything vs. menog.anything. For those who might not know, the inventor of the term “www” in front of URLs has admitted that such an addition was a mistake in the first place. Yet, after thorough discussions, those involved have concluded that in order for people to understand what menog.anything is, it is best that “www” is added in front of the URL for advertising purposes. I believe this to be the case for IDNs we well; i.e. some just don’t understand what مثال.اختبار is.

My 2 cents.

Fahd

From: menog-bounces at lists.menog.org [mailto:menog-bounces at lists.menog.org] On Behalf Of Ahmed Abu-Abed
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2013 9:51 PM
To: Tom Paseka
Cc: menog at menog. net
Subject: Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity

Hi Tom,

Country code TLDs have been available since 2010 for 4 Arab countries at least. Unfortunately its not on most peoples priority list for implementing, and I have not noticed any advertising for an Arabic URL over the past couple of years (I live in the MENOG region).

As for CloudFlares IDNs, it would be good to filter out which are using the Arabic alphabet and know how many Arabic IDNs are actually out there. That would require a good understanding of Punycode used to translate an IDN into Latin characters.

Regards,

-Ahmed

From: Tom Paseka <mailto:tom+menog at cloudflare.com>  

Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2013 7:20 PM

To: Ahmed Abu-Abed <mailto:ahmed at tamkien.com>  

Cc: mailto:menog at menog.net 

Subject: Re: [menog] New Arabic TLD and idea's popularity

Hi Ahmed, 

I've had a look through CloudFlare's customers and we see thousands of IDN's, but this is nothing compared to what exists in pre-existing romanized domains. 

For a pre-existing company to move to a IDN, or any new domain in general, they have to revamp their presence, re-market to everyone to make sure they visit the correct address. I assume this isn't an easy task. 

I suspect you'll see new starters coming out from the get-go with an IDN, but it'll take a while for the existing content to start adoption.

Cheers,

Tom

On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 1:54 AM, Ahmed Abu-Abed <ahmed at tamkien.com> wrote:

ICANN is in the news with the new شبكة  TLD, see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24637673

I am yet to see Arabic TLDs widely implemented, although most browsers are ready, even on iOS and Android which I tested with an Arabic URL. Any idea on why is the delay in implementing Arabic URL by content providers (newspapers, etc.) ? People in the region prefer Arabic websites, so I am wondering what’s stopping content providers from having Arabic URLs.

Also, anyone know if major portals, like Google or Yahoo, have implemented IDNs in any language for their URL ? Something like ياهو.شبكة  (which translates to Yahoo.net , as I cannot find an equivalent to .com as an Arabic TLD).

Best Regards,

Ahmed Abu-Abed

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